Interview with David Speers on ABC Insiders

Subjects: Student Visas and Migration, Housing Policy, Super for Housing, Census Backflip, NSW Liberal Party

E&OE………

David Speers: Andrew Bragg, welcome to the program.

Senator Bragg: David, good morning.

David Speers: So what does the Coalition want to see here? How many foreign students do you think should be let in?

Senator Bragg: Well, David, the Australian dream is more important than any export industry and there is a link between the amount of people who are coming into the country and housing accessibility. So that's why we announced in the Budget in Reply that there would be caps on foreign students and the detailed caps will be announced in due course.

David Speers: But is what the government has announced enough or would you go further?

Senator Bragg: Well that's under consideration but it is a very important nexus between the number of people who are coming in. Now we've had the largest growth in migration since the 1950s and you've seen housing construction collapse under this government. So it is very important that we put home ownership at the primacy of our policy offering. I mean that's something that we've done as a party back since the Menzies era.

David Speers: And I'll come to that. But just on what level of foreign students should be allowed in, we know the Coalition have committed to much deeper cuts to net overseas migration. Peter Dutton wants, only 160,000 net overseas migration, a 25% cut roughly. Given foreign students do make up at the moment more than 50% of that net overseas migration number, you'll have to make a much deeper cut there to achieve that, won't you?

Senator Bragg: Well, the cuts will be announced in due course, but they will be caps that we will consult with the universities on. We understand the value and the virtue of having a strong university sector, but as I say, we make no apology for putting the Australian dream before the interests of any export industry. But…

David Speers: Why is there some timidity to say we're going to have to go further in cutting foreign student numbers?

Senator Bragg: Well, there's, there's no timidity. The, the government announced their caps last week. And we are consulting still with the sector and ours will be announced well and truly before the election.

David Speers: But when, when the Coalition says we're going to cut net migration by a further 25%.

Senator Bragg: Yeah.

David Speers: When it comes to the specific, what about foreign students? It'll have to apply there, won't it? Otherwise, what do you cut skilled workers much, much deeper?

Senator Bragg: Well, I mean, the idea is that you reduce the overall permanent migration numbers as we've announced, and we reduce temporary migration and the caps for the universities are still under consultation.

David Speers: All right, but they'll have to be deeper than what's been announced by the government.

Senator Bragg: Well, it's under consultation, as I say.

David Speers: Okay, well let's, let's talk about what it means for housing and housing affordability. Is lowering demand here, is lowering demand the answer to improving housing affordability?

Senator Bragg: No but reducing foreign demand for Australian housing is a reasonable policy. But the key here is to meet the supply need. Now, just 8 years ago we were building in Australia 220,000 houses, under this year we'll only build about 160,000 houses. So construction is going rapidly backwards, we need to build more houses if we are to house our children.

David Speers: But does lowering migration make housing more affordable?

Senator Bragg: Well, I mean if you let the CFMEU run the migration program and they don't let you bring in construction workers and builders. And now we all think that yoga teachers are great, but, right now we need more builders than yoga teachers, and that's what we've had over the past few years with Labor. So recalibrating the migration arrangement so it's in the national interest is also going to be part of our policy.

David Speers: Well, regardless of what they do for a job, the question is, does lowering migration, the number, does that improve housing affordability?

Senator Bragg: Well, of course it's one of the drivers, but I'm making a comment to you about the type of people that you bring in. I mean, clearly, if the CFMEU hadn't been allowed to run the migration program, then we would have had more builders and construction workers, which would have helped us build the houses that we need.

David Speers: So you want to lower demand for housing by bringing in fewer people?

Senator Bragg: Foreign demand for Australian housing, yes.

David Speers: What about demand from investors in housing? Would that help?

Senator Bragg: Well, I mean, we don't think that there's any - the focus here is trying to build the houses for Australians to live in. And then also making sure that there isn't inappropriate levels of foreign demand for Australian housing.

David Speers: But there's a lot more demand from investors in Australia than there is from foreigners. Would it, would it be worth looking at that as well?

Senator Bragg: But the key here is to build the houses so that first home buyers can actually get into them. Now, because there's been such a constraint in the supply side of the market, it has been almost impossible for first home buyers to bridge that deposit cliff. So, that's why we're looking at ways to tilt the...

David Speers: I'll come to that. I'll come to supply. But just in terms of, demand is part of the equation too, right? So, is, are you willing to look at anything the Greens are talking about Airbnb, wanting to put some breaks on, some limits on that. Is that an area that you think is worth looking at to improve housing affordability?

Senator Bragg: It's tinkering. It's tinkering. And changes that the Greens have talked about to the tax policy would make a minuscule difference. I mean, if you really want to solve the problem, you've got to build a lot more houses, and then you've got to find a way to tilt the scales in favour of first home buyers that don't destroy the market and make it worse.

David Speers: So how do you build a lot more houses? The Coalition's already pledged to scrap the Housing Australia Future Fund, which is, the idea is to build 30,000 new homes. What's your plan to get more stock built?

Senator Bragg: Well, we will announce a supply policy. Now we don't run the planning system in Canberra, but we have to find a way to get local Councils and States to actually do the heavy lifting here.

David Speers: What about the Feds though? We're talking about the Federal Government. What's the role of the Federal Government here?

Senator Bragg: Well, this current Federal Government has tried to pay the States to build houses, which has completely failed. So we would have to look at stronger measures to ensure that we could get local Councils, and States to build houses. Now, I want to make an important point here, that NIMBYism is poison for young people. And when you see Councils and States block developments, particularly apartment buildings, that is a disaster for young people. So we have to hit the States and the Councils in whichever way we can to make sure that we build the supply that's needed because otherwise...

David Speers: What does that hit look like? I'm just getting to what the Federal Government can do when you talk about hitting them, what are you suggesting?

Senator Bragg: Well, there, there are a lot of different things you could do in terms of the financial arrangements that exist between the Commonwealth and the States. Obviously in New Zealand, they've announced a new policy to tie various payments to Councils which is linked to housing completions. We could look at that. There are a range of things that you could do because at the end of the day, we have the vertical fiscal...

David Speers: Would you take away their GST payments or dock those?

Senator Bragg: Well, we have the vertical fiscal imbalance where we collect most of the revenue and give it to the States. We need to be creative and find a way to hit the States hard where it hurts. Otherwise I fear that we will drift into a situation where the housing problem, will get worse before it gets better.

David Speers: So GST payments to the States is something you would look at withdrawing if the States aren't building enough homes.

Senator Bragg: Well, we haven't announced our supply policy yet, but all those things will be under consideration.

David Speers: That is under consideration. Okay, what about your plan to let first home buyers access their superannuation to put down a deposit? The policy you took to the last election was you could access up to $50,000 you'd have to pay it back into your super when you sell the house down the track. Where does that stand? Are you going to go further with that?

Senator Bragg: Well, the key determinant for your success in retirement is not your superannuation balance. It's your housing status. So that's why we make no apology in allowing people to use their own money to get a house. Now the average balance for a 38 year old is about $90 grand in their super. So it may make sense for there to be a higher threshold. That is under consideration, and we make no apology for putting the interests of people before the interests of the super lobby.

David Speers: What sort of threshold would you like, or any threshold, would you like open access to take all of your super out?

Senator Bragg: Well, at the moment, our policy is $50,000. That would make a significant difference to a younger person wanting to get their first house. There are options that you could increase it to. But either way, the idea of allowing super to be used for first home ownership, I think, is one of the best ideas in the policy marketplace because unless you have access to the bank of mum and dad, and a lot of Australians don't have access to that, that bank, which is now the sixth biggest lender in Australia, your super is your biggest pool of capital. So I think it's a particularly mean and nasty policy for the Labor Party to be denying people access to their own money.

David Speers: Well, I mean, you used to have a different view when you worked at the Financial Services Council. You wrote a piece in the Financial Review saying superannuation is not for housing. What changed your mind?

Senator Bragg: Well, unlike the people that work for the TWU one day, and then become a Senator the next day, and it's indistinguishable who they're actually working for, I have made up my own mind here that in fact, the super lobby does not argue in the best interests of Australians. They are arguing in their own interests. Um, I've looked at what I've said in the past and I can say to you that, that actually is not my view today, because...

David Speers: So what changed your mind?

Senator Bragg: Well, I've changed my mind and I think that at the end of the day, this housing crisis is particularly acute, and we need to do everything we can to help first home buyers get into the market.

David Speers: A lot of economists though, think this is a terrible idea for a range of reasons, but the main one being, and this gets back to the demand issue. If you've suddenly got $50 extra thousand dollars in your pocket, you're going to push up house prices. You're pushing up demand.

Senator Bragg: It's an $11 trillion market. It would make a minuscule or nil difference to house prices. This would be about tilting the scales for first home buyers where they have no access to the bank of mum and dad. Now many Australians have no access to that bank, so this is their biggest pool of capital.

David Speers: But when they did this in New Zealand with KiwiSaver, accessing that to buy a home, house prices took off like a rocket.

Senator Bragg: Well house prices have stabilised in Auckland after they've made a number of changes including to planning controls.

David Speers: Yeah, but when they did this, they jumped.

Senator Bragg: Well, as I say, it's an $11 trillion market. Allowing people in their 30s, for example, to use their money to get a first home will set them up for a much better lifestyle in retirement. Because if you are a retired renter on the pension, your life is going to be much more difficult than it otherwise would be; and this is your own money. So I think the idea that we're now the only country, effectively, that doesn't allow people to use their own money for housing is, is crazy.

David Speers: A couple of other issues while we've got you there on the Census. The Prime Minister says one new question will now be added to, that will be tested at least on inclusion on sexual preferences. Do you think there should also be a question on gender identity as well?

Senator Bragg: Look, it's been my view for a long time that sexual identity, sorry sexual orientation and gender identity are reasonable questions to ask in a modern society. I think the fact that the Prime Minister has tied himself in knots on this issue shows a great weakness in his own leadership. I mean, the Labor Party promised this at the last election. So I'm not surprised that the LGBT lobby is very disappointed and feels let down. But I'm not surprised, having now observed this government for a couple of years, it doesn't seem to have any principles.

David Speers: But you want, you want both questions in there, not just one about sexual preference, but gender identity as well.

Senator Bragg: My view for a couple of years is that asking questions about gender identity and sexual orientation are reasonable questions to ask in a modern society.

David Speers: Not a woke issue as Peter Dutton said during the week?

Senator Bragg: My view has been that those are reasonable questions to ask and I think it's very disappointing for the LGBT community to have put faith perhaps in this government and they have been let down and I think they've been treated appallingly. I mean the government appears to be like the dog that caught the car.

David Speers: Finally, the New South Wales Liberals, they've had a rough few weeks in your State after the failure to submit nominations for local Council elections. The State Director's been sent packing, some want administrators sent in. Would you be comfortable with that?

Senator Bragg: Well, I mean, I think every organisation has problems from time to time. I know that people love talking about the New South Wales Liberal Party, but this was a huge failure in process. Brian Loughnane is doing a review into it. That reports in a couple of days. Let's see what Brian has to say.

David Speers: So you open to administrators being sent in?

Senator Bragg: Well I mean, you've got to look at the core competencies. I mean, do you have candidates in the field, are you raising money? You've got, people in the field in Gilmore, Bennelong, Dobell, and you're raising money. So I think, I'm more interested in looking at the core competency of the Division rather than getting into sort of personality debates and otherwise.

David Speers: Well some of the conservatives, coming after your moderate faction there in New South Wales. They want the, the President Don Harwin to go. Do you think he should stay or go?

Senator Bragg: Well, I don't see any case for Don to go. I mean, I think he's done a good job as President. I don't think that, having an election for President now in, inside the New South Wales Division would be in the interest of the party. And, at the end of the day, people love talking about these things, but the core competencies are on display. You've got candidates in the field and you're raising money.

David Speers: Liberal Senator Andrew Bragg, thanks for joining us this morning.

Senator Bragg: Thanks, David.

[Ends]