Transcript: Interview with Rafael Epstein on ABC Drive Radio

Rafael Epstein: What are you doing tomorrow? January 26, Australia Day. The debate is healthy and it's not as simple as Black Armband versus the Three Cheers view of history. So says Andrew Bragg. He's one of the Liberal Senators for the state of New South Wales, part of Scott Morrison's government. He wrote a book just last year on reconciliation and the Uluru statement. Andrew Bragg, thanks for joining us. Senator Bragg: Hi Raf, how are you? Rafael Epstein: What do you normally do on Australia Day? Senator Bragg: Well, tomorrow morning I'm starting out with a smoking ceremony at Barangaroo in Sydney, and that fire will be lit tonight on Goat Island. And that will be the way that my day starts off. And I think that's an appropriate, respectful way to start the day. Rafael Epstein: Why is that appropriate? Senator Bragg: Well, because that's got the buy in of the local Indigenous elders and the land councils. They participate in the ceremony and they want to see the day stay where it is. But they have also made the point that if you want to have the day on 26th January, then you have to take the good and the bad. And that's my point in this piece that I've written in the paper that there is good and there is bad and we should be honest about that. Rafael Epstein: So it sounds to me like you don't want to change the day, but you do want to change the day. I hope I'm not mischaracterizing. Senator Bragg: Yeah, That's a good way to look at it. Rafael Epstein: How would you change the day? Senator Bragg: Well, I mean, I think that the day is naturally augmenting itself by moving from a raw celebration into a respectful day where people consider the good and the bad. And I would say that overwhelmingly there's a lot more good than there is bad. And so I just don't think that nations that are serious tell lies about their past. We should be honest about our past. And the bigger picture in Indigenous Affairs is actually enacting parts of the Uluru statement rather than changing a date. Rafael Epstein: Is it okay then to have a celebration on Australia Day? If for some people it's a real day of mourning, tell me why. Because it clearly isn't your mind. Tell me why it's okay to then also have a celebration on that day. Senator Bragg: Well, I think you should look at the full picture of our history and I think that there is good and there is bad. So if people want to mark the occasion with respect by going to a smoking ceremony and then perhaps going to a barbecue in the afternoon, then I think that's entirely reasonable. Rafael Epstein: You've also raised the idea of a new public holiday, a Buraadja day, which I think is from the Dhurga language, one of the language groups in New South Wales. What would that day mean? What could that be? Senator Bragg: Well, I think that you could have Australia Day as it currently is, reflecting on the past and the present, and then you could have another day, which would be about our future together. And I think that people would enjoy having a couple of days at the end of January each year to do that together. And the reality is we don't have an Indigenous public holiday in Australia, and I think we should have one. Rafael Epstein: And would that be consecutive with Australia Day? So you'd have Buraadja Day and then Australia Day, something like that? Senator Bragg: Yeah. I think you have Australia Day, then you'd have Buraadja. I mean, I'm not saying you would have to call it Buraadja day. I'm just putting some ideas on the table for people to pull apart. Rafael Epstein: Do you think people would accept that being pushed by any government of any political persuasion? These issues are genuine question. Would it work if a government led that conversation? Senator Bragg: Well, I think you need a lot of buy in from the Indigenous community to do this, but my sense would be that Australians would enjoy having another public holiday. And I think, as I say, the day is evolving already, but I think we could push it a bit further. And look even things like today's purchase of the copyright to the Aboriginal flag are important. I think that the day and the tenor of the day is maturing and developing. Certainly, over the course of my lifetime, it's changed a lot. Rafael Epstein: One of my texters, Terry, says this about your comments, Andrew Bragg, Liberal Centre for New South Wales: “A lot more good than bad”. Multiple question marks he's got there. How can the decimation of a culture be overshadowed by anything good? Senator Bragg: Well, I think you got to look at the full balance of what Australia is. I think that most people living on this earth would want to be in Australian, and Australia has been a very good country, but it has been a bad country generally for Indigenous people. And that's the truth. So I think what you can do tomorrow is you can reflect on that honestly. Rafael Epstein: Can you talk to me a bit about this is a 300 million dollar proposal for the Ngara precinct, I hope I said that properly, in Canberra. What could that become? Senator Bragg: I think it's Nur-ra, but I'm low to check your pronunciation! Rafael Epstein: No that’s okay! Senator Bragg: So this is all about having a proper institution in Canberra, because Canberra is a purpose built capital, which has no major Indigenous institution, which is quite shocking when you can compare it to Washington, perhaps. And so this is about having a resting place where you could repatriate remains from other countries, but you could conduct your cultural and historical events and activities there in the parliamentary triangle. So I'm very excited about this. Rafael Epstein: Would it be something of the stature of the war Memorial, do you think? Senator Bragg: Yes, I think it would be. And it would be something that could be part of the opening of Parliament. And the local _Ngunnawal_ Indigenous elders have strongly supported this, and I think with their consent, you can imagine a future opening of Parliament which involved the War Memorial, the Ngurra precinct and the Parliament building itself. And of course, now we've acquired the copyright to the Aboriginal flag, you'd want to see that featured as part of that process. Rafael Epstein: And something like the cenotaph in New South Wales and the shrine in Melbourne, could they have similarly adjacent buildings or little memorials next to them? Do you think that would be appropriate or not? Senator Bragg: Well, as a reformed Victoria, I would be loathed to give you any advice about how to conduct your civic affairs. But, look, I just make the point that I think we've come a long way on this front, but there's still a long way to go. I mean, for example, in the Federal Parliament, there is no permanent display to the Aboriginal flag other than what appears on some portraits. And so I'd like to see that fixed, because these are the flags of Australia. These are genuinely the flags and landmarks of our country, and we should be proud of them and display them prominently in my view. Rafael Epstein: Andrew Bragg, one of the Liberal senators for New South Wales, his book about the Ulruru Statement, actually has the same name as the Buraadja Day that he is proposing. Just before I let you go, Andrew Bragg, Grace Tame. It's her last day as Australian of the Year. She looked very unhappy to be with the Prime Minister at the Lodge. I guess she did not make her displeasure…she didn't hide her displeasure. Was that okay? Was that appropriate? Senator Bragg: Look, I think Grace Tame has done an incredible job in not only changing a law in Tasmania, but raising the profile of sexual violence. I think she's done a great job as Australian of the Year, and if she didn't want to meet the PM, then perhaps she shouldn't have gone. Rafael Epstein: Do you think she should not have gone? Senator Bragg: Well, that's up to her. I think she's done a great job as Australian of the Year, and who she meets is a matter for her. Rafael Epstein: But just a specific question. I know you have to go. Did she behave appropriately by displaying her unhappiness? Senator Bragg: I'm not commenting on her behaviour. I'm saying if she didn't want to have a meeting, she didn't need to go. She's done a great job and we thank her for what she's done in raising the profile of these issues and also for changing the law. Not many people have changed a law. Rafael Epstein: Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. Senator Bragg: Thanks, Raf. Rafael Epstein: Andrew Bragg, Liberal Senator For New South Wales. [ENDS] Media contact: Charlotte Mortlock 0401 392 624