Interview with Andrew Clennell on Sky News AM Agenda

05 March 2023

Subjects: Superannuation, the Voice, NSW State Election, Aston By- election

E&OE……… ‍

Andrew Clennell

Andrew Bragg joins me from the launch of the Coogee Liberal candidate in Sydney's Eastern Suburbs. Andrew Bragg, thanks for your time. Before I get to the government's changes to super this week, as someone who's never supported compulsory superannuation, what do you think should replace it, and what do you see as the problem with the system?

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, good morning, Andrew. If the government wanted to get a boost to the budget, one thing it could do straight away would be to make super voluntary. That would improve the overall budget position, but it would also give Australians a lot more agency to solve their own problems with their own money. For example, they might want to use that money to purchase a first home. So I think they have a lot of options there to consider that the government won't consider mainly for ideological reasons.

Andrew Clennell

So you'd like to see a voluntary system. But surely as the years go by, there's some evidence this helps a lot of people in retirement, or it has, hasn't it? The Keating policy.

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, all the analysis shows over the long term that super never delivers a positive benefit to the Budget. It gets very few people off the Aged Pension. But what it has done is it has been a huge honey pot for rent seekers in the banks and the unions to charge high fees on people's money. I think there is a better way, and that would be looking at how we can use people's own money to drive home ownership, which is a huge issue for millennials. I mean, home ownership has fallen off a cliff for millennials. And I think denying people access to their own money is frankly quite cruel and strange.

Andrew Clennell

All right, a couple of points on this. You say the best form of saving is a house. You've said that before. But not everyone can afford a house, can they? Even if they're putting aside... Even if they were able to access their super.

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, there's no question that super for housing wouldn't solve all the problems. I mean, there's still the supply issue, and it is important that State, Federal, and Local Governments are working together to improve planning and development so that more houses can be built. Because of course, you have more supply. Ultimately, that makes it easier for people to get access to a house, whether that be for ownership or it may be for rental purposes. So that is a very important policy area for us.

Andrew Clennell

All right. Now, the Coalition, you're continuing with this Morrison policy of allowing first home buyers to access super to buy a house. But first homeowner grants was seen to have lifted house prices. Wouldn't this simply do the same? To have more money out there to buy houses, house prices would go up.

Senator Andrew Bragg

There's no question that many younger people would like to have their own money for a first home deposit. Now, our policy is a start. It allows people to use a certain amount of their own super and then put it back in. Personally, I would be in favour of expanding that scheme so that people could use more of their super and not have to put it back into the scheme. I just think that at the end of the day, if you are a low income person.

Andrew Clennell

How much?

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, if you're a low income person and the biggest pool of money you have is locked away in a super fund, then you're never going to get access to a first home. There's no question that if you have a home in retirement, your retirement is better than it otherwise would be. Being a retired renter on the pension is a very difficult retirement. Even Treasury's Retirement Income Review showed that. I don't think it should be necessarily a choice. People can have a home and then look to make their own provisions for savings.

Andrew Clennell

Under the compulsory super scheme, I guess they'd have some super to go with the Aged Pension. Anyway, what do you make of the tax changes that Jim Chalmers has made on superannuation, the $3 million dollars tax?

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, I think if the government was serious about budget management, it would be looking into cull its massive off balance sheet items, over $40 billion in slash funds like the Reconstruction Fund. And then, of course, it's also spending a lot of money. We've got no idea of whether or not it's going to bank its huge windfall gains from the commodity prices. So raising taxes is the last thing they should be doing. And I just think it sends the wrong message to people that the government will pull the rug from underneath you.

Andrew Clennell

Should the change be indexed?

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, I don't think they should be doing the change. Certainly, if the change was going to go ahead, it would be better if it was indexed. If it's not indexed, then over half a million people will be hit by this creeping tax, which I should say, I mean, the government hasn't even been up front with people as to how it will work on unrealised gains. They haven't been up front with people about whether it will apply to their five Cabinet Ministers who are on Defined Benefit Schemes, who obviously sat in the Cabinet room and discuss a tax that may or may not apply to themselves.

Andrew Clennell

All right, now, you're in the Moderate faction of the Liberal Party, a large part of which was wiped out at the last election by the so called 'Teal Independents'. What's been your reaction to the court fight between Monique Ryan and Sally Rugg and the conduct of Monique Ryan reported?

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, I think when you are lecturing people about integrity, then you're setting a very high benchmark for yourself. And it remains to be seen what's actually happened here. But I think the allegations are very troubling. I put some questions on notice to the Finance Minister on Friday to try and understand exactly what has happened here? What is the cost to the Commonwealth? Because as I say, if you lecture people on integrity, then you're setting a very high standard which you should always hold yourself to.

Andrew Clennell

Do you expect Josh Frydenberg to run in Kooyong again?

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, I don't know. That's a matter for him. But obviously he's made a significant contribution to the country already. And I dare say he has more to offer.

Andrew Clennell

On the Voice, you're an enthusiastic supporter. Do you think there will end up being a conscience vote in the Liberal Party Room, or will the Party oppose it?

Senator Andrew Bragg

I don't think it will come to that, Andrew. I think ultimately everyone will want to facilitate the referendum happening. Even in '99 when we had the Republic Referendum, the Monarchists voted to have the referendum. People will vote 'no', people will vote 'yes', but I think the referendum will be facilitated by all.

Andrew Clennell

So you don't see a scenario where you'd have to cross the floor on this even over the referendum machinery legislation, would you, if you had to?

Senator Andrew Bragg

I certainly hope not. My view is very clear. If people were prepared to vote for the bill to bring on the referendum in '99 when they were staunch Monarchists, surely people will want to see Australians have their say. I mean, there are many more 'no' voters than there are yes voters. I would say, in the Coalition Party Room, but even those people would want to see or want to have their opportunity to defeat the referendum. Now, I think that this is a good idea. If the government can get the wording and the mechanism right, that it should be supported. But I want to see all Australians have their say, and I imagine that my colleagues want to see the same thing.

Andrew Clennell

Now, Peter Dutton seems a bit sceptical about how it will help practically. Why are you more convinced that the Voice will be an asset to Australia?

Senator Andrew Bragg

Well, I was on the Central Coast on Monday, and I spent a lot of time in Western New South Wales and around the various remote parts of my State. When I meet with Indigenous communities, they want to have better arrangements with government. They want to have a new compact on local issues; bus timetables, Aboriginal medical services and the like. Many of these are State issues. Some of them are local issues. I think the local and regional voices will give, in particular, the country new institutions that we need, to close the gap. And in Canberra, I think the Parliament will benefit greatly from having more information from Indigenous people about laws and policies that we make for them.

Andrew Clennell

Now, you're attending the launch of the Coogee Liberal candidate, Kylie von Muenster, this morning. What do you make of the Coalition's chances in the New South Wales election? And what would a loss mean to the Liberal Party nationally?

Senator Andrew Bragg

I think Kylie von Muenster is a terrific candidate here in Coogee. She's a doctor. She's very engaged in the community. I think she's exactly the person that we should be putting up for public office in New South Wales. I'd say more generally, the government has performed very well. People who've lived in Sydney for a long time, they know that the Liberal Party here has transformed Sydney. It's like living in a different city. I think that the government will be rewarded for that, I hope. My sense is that there are no baseball bats out for the Perrottet Government.

Andrew Clennell

Just finally and briefly, what are your chances in Aston, do you think?

Senator Andrew Bragg

I don't know Roshena Campbell, but she seems to me to be a very strong candidate. I've seen that Peter Dutton has been campaigning there with her. I would say that we've got a good chance of hanging on to that site without knowing anything about the detail.

Andrew Clennell

Andrew Bragg, thanks for your time this morning.

Senator Andrew Bragg

Thanks, Andrew. ‍

[Ends]