Interview with Tom Connell on Sky News

[](https://www.skynews.com.au/australia- news/voice-to-parliament/i-dont-think-it-has-enough-support-andrew-bragg- calls-for-voice-referendum-delay/video/0c66a923f041cfad81079a483d7136a4) **Subjects:** ASIC Inquiry, Voice to Parliament **E &OE…** ‍ **Tom Connell** Joining me live is Liberal Senator Andrew Bragg, for more on this. He, of course, has a close eye on these things as Chair of the Senate Economics Committee. What do you make of this hundredfold increase? It's about making sure the penalty is actually a deterrent because otherwise they go, white collar crime, who cares? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** It's all very well and good to have civil and criminal penalties, but you've actually got to use them. And one of the problems we have is that our regulators don't enforce the law. They don't use these penalties that are available to them. And that's what we found with the ASIC Inquiry, that ASIC has a whole bunch of civil and criminal penalties, but they don't use them. **Tom Connell** So why not? I mean, they've also got more powers announced. Is it a cultural thing? I know in the US, a lot of studies were done suggesting people wanted a job one day with the companies they were policing **.** **Senator Andrew Bragg ** It appears there are cultural problems. It doesn't appear to be the capability to bring a court case and then win it and then put someone in jail. What you don't see in Australia is white collar criminals behind bars. **Tom Connell** So, we need to see that. **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Well, you need to have proper deterrence. Otherwise, all these things just come and go. **Tom Connell** So, you wanted something more specific around jail time in what was announced to you, rather than the bigger change was the fine? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Well, I mean, I want to see the regulators enforcing our laws. I don't want to see ever higher statute books. I think it's silly to keep on putting on new laws when you're not enforcing the ones you've already got. **Tom Connell** So, the people, these regulators are just not willing to do it? Do we need to clean out? How do you fix that? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** I think there are massive cultural problems at the main regulator, at ASIC, and potentially the other regulators. There are a lot of regulators in relation to PwC, as you know, and they don't seem to have the willingness to go hard. And you know what? Sometimes you’ve got to be prepared to lose. You can't just go into a courtroom with a guarantee in your mind you're going to win. You have to be prepared to lose. **Tom Connell** So, you think it's a top-down cultural element within these regulators, partly they don't want to lose and partly... Are you concerned people think, I might want a job there one day? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Look, I think there is some familiarity that happens from time to time, but we're doing a full Senate Inquiry. We'll make some recommendations about the structure and operation of regulators by the end of the year. **Tom Connell** What's the example of a white-collar crime where someone should end up behind bars? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Well, there are a whole bunch of insider trading allegations that have been made in relation to listed companies in the past eighteen months to two years, where the allegations are well known to regulators, regulators investigate and then they don't take any action. **Tom Connell** What's an example, though, where someone should end up behind bars in your view? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Well, I mean, there are examples that we have had submissions to the inquiry in relation to companies like Nuix. There are the allegations around the super fund executives front running the market during the pandemic before valuations were made and they personally traded, and nothing happened. Those are just a couple of examples. **Tom Connell** So, you think in that situation we should be pursuing criminal action with jail terms? **Senator Andrew Bragg** I don't think white collar criminals are afraid. **Tom Connell** Okay. The Greens are putting forward an idea to ban political donations for any company going through a tender process. Would that make sense? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** I don't think that has anything to do with it. The point here is that the regulators have not enforced the law. The Labor Party is now protecting ASIC, and Labor is ensuring that all ASIC's failures to enforce the law are being held in secret and including a bunch of internal governance issues at the ASIC Commission. Labor is covering up. **Tom Connell** Well, I understand that. We've spoken about that. I'm just saying this separate idea where you separate a donation from a company from a government's ability to award a contract. Would that make sense? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** The point here is that we already have a lot of laws, but we don't enforce them. So, they don't support linking those things. I think we've got to be focused on actually... **Tom Connell** You don't see an issue, though, with a company, say, donating $200,000 to either major party when they're making a decision on a contract, and they win that contract? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** If there is that problem, we have the Anti-Corruption Commission. **Tom Connell** Right. But you might not necessarily be able to link it. It's an incentive to give that contract, isn't it? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Companies are allowed to support democracy. The unions are the biggest donors to the Labor Party and sometimes the Greens. Are we going to ban them? **Tom Connell** No, but they're not running for government contracts. Sure. So that's the difference. **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Yeah, I understand that. But that's not really how decisions are made. Just because you make a donation doesn't mean you're going to get a government contract. **Tom Connell** But it's about the transparency and look of it, right? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Yeah. Well, it's all disclosed. **Tom Connell** Well, not, in real time. **Senator Andrew Bragg ** I think this is a cop out. I think the reality is laws haven't been enforced. Let's make sure we get law enforcement right, rather than play around with these sorts of things. **Tom Connell** All right, let's talk about Voice referendum finally. Very vocal, the No campaign from the Coalition. As a Yes supporter, your latest contribution, or the most prominent one, was saying we should delay it. It's not really a ringing endorsement, is it? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Well, I think it's a problem with the product, and I don't think that it has enough support at the moment to get over the line. **Tom Connell** Right. But just by saying that, that's admitting defeat. It's not going to get delayed. You know that. Why not support it? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Well, the process that has led up to this has meant that there's a product that I don't think is going to be able to capture enough centre ground. And I think it's hugely regrettable. I don't know that it's in the country's interest to have a defeated referendum. **Tom Connell** From Peter Dutton, he said, let's just take action in these communities instead of a Voice. It's been revealed today when he was in charge of the Safer Communities program, he opted to bypass recommendations to give money to some Indigenous community areas. What do you make **** of that? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** I don't know about that, but I found him to be a very sincere and decent person. I think he genuinely has an interest in remote Indigenous communities. I know that he spent a lot of time in these communities. **Tom Connell** Well, he has. And he went to one place in Arnhem land and said, listen to their local voice. That's what they want. Listen to the changes. But this same town or town in this area wanted $300,000 for CCTV cameras and lighting. The department said it was the 26th most worthy out of 211. In other words, it's worthy. They didn't get it when he was Minister. Isn't that him saying one thing and doing another? **Senator Andrew Bragg ** I think he's very committed to supporting remote Indigenous communities. And he's shown in his political or non-political life, a willingness to get his hands dirty and to support vulnerable people. **Tom Connell** Except in that situation. **Senator Andrew Bragg ** I don't know the details of that situation. **Tom Connell** All right. We might talk about it with more particulars available next time. Andrew Bragg, thanks for your time. **Senator Andrew Bragg ** Thanks, Tom. **[ENDS]**