Transcript - Interview on Joy FM with Macca and Joe Ball

‍ [](https://joy.org.au/saturdaymagazine/2023/02/saturday- february-11th-2023-federal-opposition-senator-andrew-bragg-the-voice/) ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** This podcast is brought to you by Australia's LGBTQIA Community Media organisation, Joy. Keep joy on air by becoming a member, a subscriber, or donate. Head to joy. Org. Au. Joy, a diverse sound for a diverse community. ##### **Joe Ball** Good morning. You're listening to Saturday Magazine, with myself, Joe Ball, co-hosting with the anchor, the forever anchor of Saturday Magazine, Macca. And we have another guest coming up. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** We do. And Liberal Senator Andrew Bragg is joining us on the phone. Good morning, Andrew. How are you? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** G'day, guys. How's it going? ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** Look, pretty good. I read with... We're all following the discussion, the debate about the Voice. And I read with interest that, and I don't know if you've released it yet, Andrew, a position paper giving five reasons the Voice is right. And you said, look, this isn't a Labor project, it's an Australian project, and it's our best shot at reconciliation. So have you actually released the position paper as yet? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Yes, I have. And I've long been of the view that if the Voice is going to be successful at this year's referendum, it will be essential for there to be a large group of Liberal National voters voting 'yes'. And I'm wanting to push the referendum in that direction. But I think we need to address some of the outstanding concerns people have about the detail and some of the legal risks which haven't been addressed to date. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** Sorry, can I just ask, so the legal risk, can you explain to us first off what the legal risk is? I know Joe's got some questions, but what do you see as the legal risk, Andrew? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Well, the main risk is that there could be an enlarged role for the High Court. If the Voice is not designed in a way that it should be, in my view, and that really goes to whether or not the decisions of Parliament or the decisions of the Executive, such as Ministers, could be second guessed by the High Court. I mean, we don't want to have a US style system here. We want to have a system where Parliament is accountable to the people. And you can either rehire the government or we can sack the government, and therefore you can go in a different direction. So I think that's a very important principle. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** Sorry, this is in the legislation for the Voice as opposed to the referendum. So it's a separate issue. It's about how that legislation is framed and obviously whether the Parliament supports it or not. Is that correct? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Well, it's more about the amendment itself to The Constitution. So this is an issue called justiciability, which is whether or not the decisions of Parliament or the decisions of the Executive could be second guessed by the High Court. And there are various legal opinions on this. And I'm not saying that it's definitively a major problem, but we want to have a proper review by the Parliament of the various constitutional amendments. And I think I'm hoping what the PM has announced this week will actually give rise to this process because we have to make sure it's a safe change. I mean, I'm a big supporter of the Voice being in the Constitution, but I want it to be a safe change for our system of government. And I want to be able to recommend a 'yes' vote with full confidence that it won't give us a US style system where the High Court reign supreme. ##### **Joe Ball** For those listening at home, we are talking to New South Wales Senator Andrew Bragg, Federal New South Wales Senator. And for those just who may not be as familiar with you, Andrew, you are a member of the Liberal Party. And in your Maiden Speech, going back a bit, but in your Maiden Speech, you were a 'yes' for Marriage Equality. And during the Religious Discrimination Bill discussions, you did want stronger protections for transgender kids. And importantly, in the conversation we're having today, you have always been a supporter of implementing the Uluru Statement in full. Is that correct? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Yeah, I think it's a good idea. And I think we have significant issues in our country which could be addressed by giving Indigenous communities more agency and more control over their own communities. And I think that's one important thing that the Voice could do. ##### **Joe Ball** It's fair to say, Andrew, you would be a moderate within the Liberal Party. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** I might even call him a progressive. ##### **Joe Ball** Well, I'll leave that to self identify, Andrew, as we do here. But I'm wondering, how do you go about creating change internally? I mean, people are watching the debates, if you like, and Peter Dutton's position on it. But then we do have Ken Wyatt, the first Aboriginal in the previous government, the first Aboriginal Minister who was Aboriginal himself. And he said the full details are out there. Ken Wyatt said that. How do you go about creating change within the party? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Well, I'm not so big on these labels, but certainly the Liberal Party has historically been a broad church. And I think it's important that the diversity of views are committed. I think it's healthy. And I think the Liberal Party, being a great big tent, has actually served Australia very well over the long run. So people have different views about the Voice. I think there's a lot of misinformation out there about what the Voice is and what it isn't. One of the reasons I released the pamphlet during the week was to hit back at some of the misinformation. Ultimately though, people will make up their own minds. I have been a long time supporter of the concept of the Voice, and I'm hoping that the government can clear the way with these last few issues around the legal risks and around the detail so that more liberals and conservatives are able to support the Voice as proposed. ##### **Joe Ball** I think you're absolutely right. People will make up their own mind. But leadership does matter. And what Ken Wyatt's coming out as an Aboriginal man himself and talking about that there isn't confusion or there is information you can find out there does matter. I think you've shown that Andrew, and even around the Religious Discrimination Bill, people did notice, did sit up and notice that you were taking a different track, or the position you did put forward about wanting to support transgender kids. It does matter. People do look, they do care. How do you think about yourself as a leader in that way, of these ideas around the Voice, around our community, LGBTIQA+ communities? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Well, I think it's a very important part of our liberal tradition to protect minority groups. And I think it's a mark of a society how it treats minorities. And that's why I've always been very keen to do everything I can to support the LGBTI community. Because I think that it has, at times in the past suffered from being a minority, and it has suffered from that. And that's how I see it. I see it as a protection and advancement of minority interests. And the Indigenous issues are similar in a way because they're only 3% of the population, there's no way that the Indigenous community is going to be able to win something like a referendum, which requires a majority of people and a majority of States. So you need to have people that are prepared to go in and bat for this minority group, and it is a minority group. And so that's how I see it philosophically. I mean, we're all Australian, and I think you've got to have a broader view about the community and community cohesion. But I think in some ways, as I say, the protection of minority groups and how they're treated in society is actually a mark of how good our country is. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** I'm sure there's some interesting discussions in the Party Room, Andrew. ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** [laughs] ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** [laughs] ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** I wanted to ask, look I think this is a really, you know, I acknowledge and admire the fact that you're publicly coming out and supporting this. It's not always easy, and it is with some provisos. I accept that. It's great to have the discussion. In fact, next week we have Greg Craven on from The Centre for Independent Studies, who's putting a conservative... He's saying a conservative view on the Voice, and we had a colleague of his on a week or so ago, sorry, I forgot his name. But I wanted to ask you, there's a new numbers dynamic in the Senate now with Lidia Thorpe jumping off the Greens bus and sitting next to Pauline Hanson, which I can't imagine how that's going. So the government previously needed all the Greens votes, plus one crossbencher. Now they still need all the Greens votes to pass legislation, but two crossbenchers. So as a Senator, and your good friend and colleague, Dean Smith, and I think, is Dean and yourself, you must be looking at that thinking, "Hmm how's this gonna work?" What are your thoughts, first on the numbers? And do you have a view on Lidia leaving the Greens? ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Well, it changes the dynamics quite a lot because it means that we, as the Opposition in the Senate, can now band together with all the crossbenchers, except for the Labor Party and the Greens, and stop things from happening. So we can block legislation. We can also disallow government regulation. And in fact, this week on Thursday, we had a massive win when we were able to knock off a regulation the government has made. So the Labor Party had made a regulation which allowed the super funds to cover up the donations they were making to unions. I'll let you work out why that was a priority for them. But that was a big cover up of information that superannuation fund members should be able to see. I mean, it's a compulsory system. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** It's their money. ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Yeah so therefore, you think that you let the punters see where their money is going, particularly if it's being sent off to a union or a bank. And so we were able to stop that. And now we've found a way to revert back to the regulation we made under a Liberal government which requires full transparency. And so that's just one indication already that there's an immediate change in the Senate because we were able to do that only on the second day that Lidia sat as an independent. Now, look, I think it's going to make it harder for the government, but it's also going to make the whole system more accountable. So I think it's good that governments' generally don't control the Senate and it's been a lot of things that have been stopped, bad things stopped, and more review undertaken because of the fact that the government doesn't control it. So look, I think it's just the accountability in the system and it gives us more opportunities to hold the government to account. ##### **Joe Ball** It's interesting you bring that up because, of course, it was the Religious Discrimination Bill that was stopped in the Parliament, not because there was a mixed Parliament, but because members of your own party crossed the floor. Not yourself, but other people cross the floor. And for a lot of people, particularly people thinking about equality in schools and protecting children, LGBTI children, from discrimination, that was a huge win to see some of your colleagues cross the floor. Of course, some of those people have gone now. They lost their seats to Teals. What do you think that means for the party? Some of those people who are more progressive on these issues, they're no longer there. ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** Well, the the Senate was actually where that Bill died because some of us indicated that we would not be prepared to support it, and that's why the Bill was stopped. So that was on that Bill. But look, I think if they had wanted an orthodox Anti Discrimination Bill for people of faith, they could have had that. But they wanted to have all this other stuff. If they had wanted the shield, they could have had the shield, but they wanted the sword. And there was enough of us in the Senate and the House that weren't prepared to give them that. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** That didn't like swords. Unfortunately, Andrew, we're out of time. I will be in touch with the officer. We'd love to have another chat with you again. It's been a great to have this chat. I'm sorry, we are out of time. We've got to go to the news. ##### **Senator Andrew Bragg** No worries. ##### **David 'Macca' McCarthy** Nice to speak to you. And thanks so much for your time, Andrew. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Andrew Bragg, Liberal Senator from New South Wales. Saturday magazine with Macca and Joe. ##### **[Ends]** ‍ ‍